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^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Sep 19 16:59:06 2019 64.129.18.68) [Edit/Delete]
White Wings/Wolfguard: In certain strains of Islam, there is a belief that someone called the Twelfth Imam is going to return or reveal himself and bring (islamic) justice to the world. In order for this to happen the world has to be plunged into war IE basically world war III has to break out. The mullahs in charge of Iran, for instance, subscribe to this branch of Islam and believe in this twelfth imam fervently. They believe a major war and/or the destruction of the world has to happen so the 12th imam can come.

If they achieve nuclear capability they will USE it, because they really believe this will lead to a paradise on earth. Religious fervor trumps reason.

This is one example. There's lots of crazy, nihilistic or just hateful people, individuals or groups, who don't give a damn if they die or how many other people die who would gladly set off a bomb. Or several.



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notsoShyGirl says:
(Thu Sep 19 14:24:54 2019 98.245.68.20) [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
Mr. Ed



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Sep 19 10:25:24 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: TV
Question: Bamboo Harvester played what famous TV character?



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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Thu Sep 19 10:11:47 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Today Thursday, September 19th 2019 C.E.

We have EIGHT (8) Birthdays!


amberlynne
Angelicsoul
Carebear
CharlieX
chiquens
Falco
Gryphon
SlayerGirl

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to amberlynne, Angelicsoul, Carebear, CharlieX
chiquens, Falco, Gryphon, SlayerGirl



Mal: You are very much lacking in imagination. Zoe: I imagine that's so, sir. 'Out Of Gas'

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Sep 19 03:21:08 2019 4.28.180.2) [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

I understand that Mark Sanford is challenging President Trump for the
nomination, are there others?


White Wings,

I'm not saying nuclear weapons cannot be used to create terror towards a
political end. I'm saying that end would not be destruction, itself. Those who
want to drive Israelis into the sea intend to inhabit the country left. Hard
to do if it's irradiated and destroyed. More later.


WG



^ v
white wings says:
(Thu Sep 19 02:20:19 2019 70.112.135.184) [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday amberlynne, Angelicsoul, Carebear, CharlieX, chiquens, Falco, Gryphon, and SlayerGirl!

Except I think maybe that's tomorrow and today is:

Happy Birthday Ana, GlassesNanny, Jaan Quidam, and SMGFan!

But I've been wrong before. *g*

DaddyCatALSO - I don't think we can really predict what the responses would be to a nuclear attack. It would depend on who was in charge and who was hit and what was hit, and who done it, and probably other things. You are correct that we do know that one nuclear attack is not in and of itself the end of the world. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and for that matter nuclear incidents such as Chernobyl and Fukushima, showed us that.

Ebdim9th - Long time, yes, but the memories remain.

wolfguard - You may be making a mistake in assuming that others follow the same logic that you do. I agree with you about terror as a strategy, and many of the purveyors of terror wanting to rule. But I'm not at all convinced that religious fanatics who say they want to destroy, say, Israel, are speaking in hyperbole. On the other hand, if they were able to unleash nuclear weapons, I don't know if they want to do it close to sacred religious spots. They might prefer nuclear, or tactical nuclear, for places farther away, and more physical means to just push Israel into the sea. But they may not be as fanatical as I credit them with being, and simply shrewder about where and how they push. Yup, still wishy-washy here. *g*



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Sep 19 00:26:52 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard It seems that Trump has challengers!



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Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Sep 18 22:20:55 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial PUrsuit

Category: Angel
Question: What actor played the character of Marcus Hamilton?
Answer: Adam Baldwin

Trivia master: notsoShyGirl



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Sep 18 17:10:31 2019 71.199.128.40) [Edit/Delete]
DaddyCatALSO,

Just caught your post after posting mine and had to wait five minutes...

Many people believe there's no "automatic switch". Some say it's because the
actual detonation of a few nuclear bombs would bring people to their senses.

It may not matter if some people come to their senses, because it's possible
the command and control systems will be down or partially down and troops in
the field will act based on their standing orders and whatever partial
orders they get or can infer. The government and military has gone to great
effort to ensure that service people, when the time comes, will press
the buttons. In the end, some might not, but some will.

I once spoke with a person, in a naval warfare chatroom, who claimed to have
participated in several nuclear war game exercises. He said once the first
missiles were fired, soon many more were fired. We needed to use them before
we lost them or lost contact with our forces. He also said in any pairing
between the US or USSR or China, one of the two would attack the third non-
participating country. Why? We don't want the third country standing alone
on the ruins of the other two countries.

OTOH, I've read others who participated in such games which followed a
path more similar to the one you're sure would happen. Who knows? *g*

If Custer had fallen too ill to command, would a different officer have
attacked the Indians at Little Big Horn?

If Lincoln had not found Grant and Sherman, would he have lost the 1864
election and if he had, would the new president have continued the war?

If Nixon had erased all of his personal tapes, would he have had to resign
in August 1974 or would he have finished out his term?

The Lady or the Tiger? Which door do you choose? *g*



WG



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Sep 18 16:37:35 2019 71.199.128.40) [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper,

Terrorism is not an ideology, it's a strategy of the weak. It's a lethal,
sustained temper tantrum aimed at getting a seat at the table.1
The Taliban does not want to destroy Afghanistan, they want to rule
Afghanistan. Al Qaeda doesn't want to destroy the Middle East, they want to
run the Middle East as a Caliphate. The danger is some groups and countries
believe nuclear weapons can be used to win a war.

Some analysts believe some countries view nuclear weapons as uber artillery,
a bigger bang. Some point to India and Pakistan. The two countries have
fought three wars since becoming independent and frequently exchange gun and
artillery fire. Pakistan has used terrorist tactics against India, but
Pakistan wasn't looking at destroying the sub-continent.2 There
was a recent article in Proceedings which noted the lack of above
ground nuclear weapons testing has lead to some forgetting or never
experiencing the real destructive effect of nuclear weapons, i.e. they
are more than big artillery. The author pointed specifically at some in the
Russian officer corp who believe "tactical" nuclear weapons can be used to
offset conventional forces (To be fair, the US shared this view, on and off,
during the Cold War). It's certainly possible some Islamic "terrorist"
groups would be willing to use nuclear weapons as a means.

I had to get the above on terrorism out of the way. Most "terrorists" are
not killing people and destroying things as an end, it's a means to an end.
That said there are probably some people who see "THE END" as the end. An
example might be Aum Shinrikyo - no longer with us. I imagine such a group
would not pause to consider the ethical implications of using nuclear bombs.

So let's get rid of the adjective, "terrorist", and explore which country or
groups might use nuclear weapons towards political ends: The US, Russia,
China, France, the United Kingdom, Israel, India, Pakistan, and North
Korea.3 Could a non-state actor build a nuclear bomb? For a very
long time some people have been answering, "Yes!" Happen yet? No.
4

What if a nihilist group took over a country? (Here and now I am offering
"Nihilist" as a more accurate word than " ________ terrorist ideology". We
have a possible candidate: Pakistan. The country has nuclear weapons and
seems politically unstable. If the country were to "fall apart" might a
nihilist group be able to secure some of the country's nuclear weapons?
Maybe. Would they be able to operate the weapons? Probably not, unless the
nihilist are the commanders, soldiers, and technicians operating the said
weapons.5

I didn't mean to go on so long, but one thing followed another. *g* I'm also
listening to a Bloomberg reporter saying the military people he talked with
said the attack on the Saudi oil facilities were professional and probably
conducted by both drones and cruise missiles. I underlined the last
because it shows how much more dangerous the world has become. Out of the
blue, BOOM!


SIDEBAR - India and Pakistan almost went to war during the summer of 2002. I
outlined and drafted part of a BTVS fanfic where Willow got involved (After
season 6's Grave Giles sent her to India for rehabilitation rather
than the UK). SIDEBAR


1 A group engaged in a guerilla war might use terrorist tactics
in the beginning or in those areas where they are not strong enough to use
conventional forces, but guerilla fighters aim for more than a seat at the
table, they want to sit at the head of the table.

2 Example, the attacks on Mumbai in 2008.

3 Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons after becoming independent.
South Africa (Apartheid) may have built and tested a nuclear bomb(s), but
did not deploy nuclear weapons. There are a few countries who could probably
assemble a nuclear explosive device on relatively short notice, for example
Japan.

4 In was in 1968 as a teenager that I came across a magazine
article - mainstream - speculating on the possibility. One of the first non-
fiction books exploring it was The Curve of Binding Energy by John
McPhee (c. 1974). It's still a good read.

5 I'm relatively sure the US Department of Defense has
contingency plans for securing or destroying Pakistani nuclear weapons if
something like this were to happen (Anyone telling you we absolutely do is
guessing or talking out of class). Would the plans work? *Shrug* *g*

Adding content to the Bronze since 1998!

WG



^ v
Ebdim9th says:
(Wed Sep 18 16:24:34 2019 174.235.130.155) [Edit/Delete]
white wings lotta changes since childhood, those rifles are long gone... and the pellet gun, too.....

Greetings You All Everybody! 🏝️



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Sep 18 15:25:46 2019 199.127.148.4) [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Christopher Marlowe Agent Cooper Following a column by Bill Buckley I saw in the 70s, I regard the period from '58-'89 as WWII, so the next is IV.

I don't see the reason for hysteria over one or two nukes going off. Yes, it will be a horror for anyone close enough to be hit (just like other bombs are) and also (unlike other bombs) anyone affected by t he fallout. But that dreaded "automatic switch" doesn't exist. The idea that as soon as a single nuclear surface explosion is detected anywhere in the world, the US, Russian, British, French, and Chinese nuclear arsenals automatically go into an unstoppable countdown and launch, is not and never really was true.



^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Wed Sep 18 15:17:58 2019 98.245.68.20) [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
Adam Baldwin



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Sep 18 15:00:08 2019 64.129.18.68) [Edit/Delete]
Wolfguard/White Wings: What is going to start (and end) world war III is when an adherent of some insane terroristic ideology (which will most likely be radical islam) gets hold of a viable and effective nuclear weapon (or arsenal of them) and lauches/detonates it/them.

No matter what steps other nations take to prevent it, this will happen eventually. It's inevitable.

This is without doubt how the end of our modern world is going to come, barring a stray asteroid.



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Sep 18 10:31:45 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial PUrsuit

Category: Angel
Question: What actor played the character of Marcus Hamilton?



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Sep 18 10:12:12 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Today Wednesday, September 18th 2019 C.E.

We have EIGHT (8) Birthdays!


amberlynne
Angelicsoul
Carebear
CharlieX
chiquens
Falco
Gryphon
SlayerGirl

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to amberlynne, Angelicsoul, Carebear, CharlieX, chiquens, Falco, Gryphon, SlayerGirl



Stop that right now! I can hear the smacking! Giles, 'Something Blue''

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
white wings says:
(Wed Sep 18 03:39:17 2019 70.112.135.184) [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard - Well ... not so much. *g* Of course, properly behaved skeet never fly directly at the shooter. But there were a few times on stations 1 or 8 when the bird in the low house broke and one piece came flying at me. I can't say I liked that, but I was already in position, ready to track the bird, expecting to shoot it, and it was more natural to adjust to a slightly different trajectory than to freeze or duck. Smoked 'em. I did feel pretty perky about it. ;-)



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Sep 18 03:20:01 2019 4.28.180.2) [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

I suspect flying objects do not worry you much when you're holding a
shotgun? *g*


Christopher Marlowe,

Which "odd thought"?

The Cold War between the US and USSR existed, because both sides had nuclear
weapons and tried avoiding situations that might lead to a head-to-head
conflict.1 It was more dangerous before both sides achieved
second-strike capabilities.2

We could have a cold war again, two or more sides competing sans war, but it
would be more dangerous because of new missiles. More later.

Google "Thucydides Trap". It's new buzz phrase.


1 Such fighting might occur, but it had to be kept out of the
public eye. For instance, Russian pilots flying for North Korea during the
Korean War could be denied. American aircrew shot down while flying recon
around Soviet borders or testing Soviet radars could be explained away.

2 The ability to let the other side strike first with nuclear
weapons and still be able to respond with nuclear weapons. Before this
capacity existed if either the US or USSR detected inbound aircraft or
missiles, then they would have a very short time in which to decide whether
to fire their own nuclear missiles before they might be lost in the attack.
Hair-string.


WG



^ v
white wings says:
(Wed Sep 18 02:51:16 2019 70.112.135.184) [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday LB!

lostinamerica - I'm enjoying the same delusion after the (my)UT-Rice game. I understand the emotional state well. I think we have a chance, though.

wolfguard - You're welcome for the link. I thought you'd enjoy it if it was unfamiliar. The cities being designed essentially to avoid children sound like they are headed towards being an object lesson from a Star Trek episode. I'm not comfy around children myself, but you gotta have 'em. I mean, other people gotta have 'em, and I gotta accept them, for the future. *g*

DaddyCatALSO - I was distracted last night, and forgot to say how pleased I was to learn of someone else who fears flying objects. I'm not sure when my problem started. I remember once sitting down on the sidelines where some guys were playing (or playing at) football. The ball hit me right on the back, and the next thing I knew I was flat out with the wind knocked out of me. Since then I've been aware of flinching in any game where balls might head in my direction but it's possible that it was only after that incident that I was introduced to the delights of dodgeball or softball in school. I was able to play tennis, however. That's probably because in tennis you stand away from the ball to hit it, and don't move towards it to catch it, or have it thrown at you deliberately.



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Sep 18 01:47:44 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard An odd thought, could there be another Cold War?



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Sep 18 01:01:21 2019 4.28.180.2) [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Wed Sep 18 01:01:57 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

An axon to me is part of a neuron. *g* I just googled "AXON police" and up
popped a the website of a company that caters to law enforcement and
civilians. Here's Wikipedia's article on it ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axon_(company)


Agent Cooper,

From lecture 26, ~The Fall of The Roman Republic


5. Changes in the military. Conquest required maintenance of a permanent
military establishment in the provinces to cope with rebellions. Roman
authorities continued to rely on conscription to man overseas armies, but
the prospect evolved for an 18 year old draftee to spend 16 to 20 years
outside Italy, all the while receiving minimum pay for military service...


Source: https://web.ics.purdue.edu/~rauhn/fall_of_republic.htm


As I remember the wealth from the conquests that poured into Rome was used
in part to buy small-landholdings and merge them into plantations. I believe
some of the small-land holdings had loss value, because their owners were
serving overseas.


WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Sep 18 00:02:02 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard This week's academy class is on the AXON System (whatever that is and the K9 unit!



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Sep 17 22:17:12 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: Who wrote the episode 'Passion'
Answer: Ty King

Trivia Master: notsoShyGirl!



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Tue Sep 17 18:01:43 2019 64.129.18.68) [Edit/Delete]
Wolfguard: Well, from what I've read, the Republic and early Roman empire only inducted land holding citizens into the army. Later on as the need for more recruits became an issue, the laws were changed so that any Roman citizen could join. In fact, if you served 20 years in the army you were given a plot of land of your own upon retirement. This was a very ingenious scheme, because it both incentivized many young, poor landless men to join up, but also served as a vehicle for Roman colonization of conquered land. (The plot of land you got was usually in a conquered province.)

These Roman soldiers presumably fought hard when it counted because they had a personal stake in the outcome, IE, they were defending their own home, their own land and/or land that was coming to them. They had something to fight for.

As time went on and the empire grew the Romans eventually allowed anybody to join the army, IE, non-Romans from conquered territories were allowed to join. Who presumably had less of a direct stake in the Empire's fate, and in some cases were either indifferent or possibly even hostile to Rome's interests. It could be assumed they were much less likely to give 100% on the battlefield.

During the decline of the Empire, in the last years of its existence they Romans had to resort to employing paid mercenaries on a large scale to fight for them. Which definitely contributed to the fall of Rome, as, quite predictably, these paid "barbarians" cared little if at all for the well being of the Roman state. And many turned on their Roman benefactors at the end.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Sep 17 16:42:02 2019 71.199.128.40) [Edit/Delete]
BBC article, "The major cities being designed without children in mind"

Excerpt ...

"...Although its difficult to pinpoint exactly how much a family costs a
city, it's generally more than single- or child-free citizens. Some city
officials argue that it makes more economic sense to prioritise citizens
without children, who bring a net economic gain to a city, over families,
who bring a net loss. After all, kids don't make big purchases or pay taxes
on their own, and schools can be the biggest expense for local
governments..."


Link:

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190910-the-major-cities-being-
designed-for-adults-not-families



WG



^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Tue Sep 17 15:09:27 2019 73.95.133.58) [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
Ty King



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Sep 17 14:06:40 2019 199.127.148.4) [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl I did not participate in yesterday's trivia, a nd my comment tot TheBirthdayGnomette was completely serious.



^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Tue Sep 17 11:59:59 2019 73.58.128.92) [Edit/Delete]
Currently enjoying the delusion that we're back after beating up on UT-
Chattanooga 45-0 because it will be over when we meet Florida this weekend :(

Of course, there's always a chance :D


Happy Belated Birthday DeMoriel!



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Sep 17 10:20:44 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: Who wrote the episode 'Passion'?



^ v
TheBirtdayGnomette says:
(Tue Sep 17 09:58:20 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Today Tuesday, September 17th 2019 C.E.

We have TWO (2) Birthdays!


John Ritter as TED - R.I.P.
LB

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to LB!



Zoe: Yeah? Thought you'd get land crazy that long in port. Wash: Probably, but I've been sane a long while now, and change is good. 'Shindig'

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Sep 17 06:41:12 2019 71.199.128.40) [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

Thank you for the article.

The US military has been manned by volunteers for around 40+ years. It is a
professional military. The US peacetime draft began in 1940 and ran up to
~1970. During these years the Department of Defense reasoned a cadre of
career professionals could train draftees who after active service would
return to civilian life, but would be available for call-up in emergencies.

Before WWII, the US Army was relatively small in keeping with the historical
American suspicion of large, standing military forces.1 When war
loomed, we called up and drafted the needed troops and then after the war
end, returned them to civilian life.2

As to American soldiers always "attacking" ... The first soldier that I can
remember talking with who served in Vietnam was an E-7 (Sergeant First
Class). This was 1970, and I remember only two things he said. One was his
exchanging his M-16 for an AK-47 as soon as he could. Second, he told of
once working with some Marines. They had encountered a enemy bunker. The
Marines wanted to attack. He told them, just wait a few minutes, we got a
tank coming up. No! No! We're going to attack.

I don't remember how this ended, but he was not impressed with the Marines'
tactics.

One thing that might distinguish the US Army from some foreign armies is the
idea of "Commander's Intent" - This is our goal. If a soldier knows the
commander's intent, then even if he's isolated from command he'll be able to
assess the situation around him and given it, what he can do to further the
mission. Sometimes, that might mean digging in.

A related idea: "Strategic Corporal"


1 The Navy was relatively large because the Ocean was both our
moat and bridge to the rest of the world. The Marines and Coast Guard were
small. The Air Force still in the future.

2 I believe around 12 million Americans served in the military
during WWII. When the war ended, most of all them returned to civilian life.
There was some concern that many would not find jobs and the country would
fall back again into a depression.



WG



^ v
white wings says:
(Tue Sep 17 02:18:57 2019 70.112.135.184) [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Binny, DeMoriel, minifan, and typical het boy!

Good heavens, after twenty years and all kinds of societal throes and awakenings, I just realized what the "het" in typical het boy means. I may possibly be a little slow. Perhaps I should keep these moments of clarity to myself. *g*

wolfguard - That letter is interesting, and it makes sense. Speaking as someone who would never be faced with that kind of assimilation, yet benefitted greatly from its existence.

You might enjoy This, if you haven't seen it already. My nephew found it, but it turns out that it's easy to google up.

wolfguard, Agent Cooper - I think that city living has two trends. The first is to make fighting less well-regarded, and the second, as the cities become more crowded, is to actually encourage it. Think gang fighting and just plain tensions and tempers flaring from overcrowding. But I believe that in Roman times the city folk were not as far removed from the other folk, and territorial fighting was ... maybe not more frequent than nowadays, but not less. *g* Of course, Agent Cooper's note on the makeup of a lot of the Roman armies also applies.



^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Sep 16 23:39:42 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: States
Question: What is the official state sport of Maryland?
Answer: Jousting

Trivia master: notsoShyGirl, Comma!
Trivia Comedians: DaddyCatALSO, Agent Cooper!



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Sep 16 23:33:54 2019 4.28.180.2) [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Mon Sep 16 23:34:09 2019
Agent Cooper,

Do you think there were differences between the Roman armies of the Republic
and the Empire? What of differences between Rome in the West and Rome in the
East (aka Byzantine)?


Christopher Marlowe,

Going through some recent notes and found the following ...

"For the last 50 years, Democrats have had a tendency to chew up and spit
out their front-runners," says American pollster John Zogby, "so it's not
always been kind to front-runners." Of all the Democratic hopefuls over the
past 50 years, only three eventual nominees were leading in the polls a year
ahead of the convention. None of these three - Walter Mondale, Al Gore and
Mrs. Clinton - went on to win the presidency.


Unfortunately I didn't write down the source. :(

So, of the group running for the nomination which three were leading this
past summer?


WG



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Sep 16 20:37:21 2019 64.129.18.68) [Edit/Delete]
Wolfguard: Roman tactics varied by era. They evolved over time.

Roman males, throughout much of the time the empire existed, were consumed with a concept called "Virtus." Think Macho or Bravado, but on steroids. Roman men culturalized to come to blows over any slight. The loved to fight and were quite warlike as a people.

In the modern day people marvel at how disciplined the Roman Army was for its day, but people who study it extensively know that the Romans kept strict discipline on their soldiers because they HAD too.

Roman generals were always struggling to keep their men in formation, keep them moving where they were supposed to, when their natural inclination was to surge forward and start slashing at the enemy regardless of any orders or battle plan. The pressure to prove yourself as tough or tougher than everybody else in your cohort was a very real thing for these guys, and they chafed at orders to stand down or hold a line.

Add on to this unruly, bloodthirsty mindset the fact that in the Roman army, advancement was based strictly on valor. Promotions and monetary awards were given to men the toughest, bravest men. The man over the siege wall, or the first man to bring down an enemy standard bearer etc. would advance in rank and status.

The army was one of the few ways a man born in the lowest classes could advance his lot in life, if he was bold or reckless enough and lucky enough to survive. And remember too, alot of these men were NOT Romans at all, but barbarians from the hinterlands who had no use for Roman rules or order in the first place.

All of these factors created a perfect storm of trouble for the officers and generals who's job it was to keep these men in some semblance of a military formation and execute maneuvers correctly in the heat of a battle. It's a miracle any of them were able to do this at all, not to mention as successfully as they did.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Sep 16 15:11:19 2019 71.199.128.40) [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper,

Yours on Roman Army was fascinating. I've seen mention made of research
suggesting town and city living has naturally selected for less violent men.
In small groups, such as a hunting/gathering or horticultural band, it was
useful having violent men who could act against dangerous 'outsiders'. Once
settlements became larger enough that not everyone knew each other's name,
then this proclivity could hurt the community.

Hollywood has usually shown ancient fighting as two mobs merging into one
large mob of individuals fighting one another, an uber melee. Successful
ancient armies molded men to work together as one.

The Roman Republic and Empire were around a very, long time so the following
may not always have been true, nevertheless ...

A Roman Legion when facing a foe would form its units in a checkerboard
pattern. There would be a space between each unit on the front line wide
enough to insert another unit. The second line would be similarly arranged,
but staggered so its units were facing the gaps in the front.

Depending on the commander's needs, the second line could move forward into
the gaps or the first line could be withdraw into the gaps between the
second line. Hard to do with men under stress and excitement unless they
have been drilled extensively.


WG



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Sep 16 14:24:26 2019 64.129.18.68) [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl: Well, we can at least rule out baseball! Heh.

*RIMSHOT*



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Mon Sep 16 14:18:41 2019 199.127.148.10) [Edit/Delete]
TheBirthdayGnomette Short one nyah.

white wings Ditto on catching or hitting a ball. In first grade we were told to paly baseball one day, no mitts or masks, the teacher designated me catcher and the first ball came straight form the pitcher to my nose. Have gunched away from flying balls ever since



^ v
Comma says:
(Mon Sep 16 13:48:09 2019 50.234.254.246) [Edit/Delete]
Trivial Girl: I was going to say 'Tiddly Winks', but, since I, as a hobby, forge swords for reenactors, I know that it is 'JOUSTING'.

Comma



^ v
notsoShyGirl says:
(Mon Sep 16 13:46:24 2019 98.245.68.20) [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
Jousting



^ v
Comma says:
(Mon Sep 16 13:40:31 2019 50.234.254.246) [Edit/Delete]
The P.O.V., privately owned vehicle, causality board, at Fort Campbell, from 1974 until 1997, always had the same message: 'Mission First, People Always'. My job, as an NCO, was not to raise children to become adults. My job was to turn, for the most part, young adults into soldiers. While instructing, at both the Airborne School at Benning, JFK at Fort Bragg, and at the Air Assault School at Fort Campbell, I always tried to keep the dignity, of the trainee, in mind. But it always went back to the same thing, 'MISSION FIRST'!

One thing, that I always did as an NCO, was to never give an order by blaming the order on someone else. Any order, that I gave, was my order. While I may have discussed, with a superior, certain misgivings that I had about my orders, my soldiers never knew that I had those thoughts. In some cases I got orders changed or cancelled. After all, 'It was always a great day to allow your enemy to die for their country!'.

Comma



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Trivia Girl says:
(Mon Sep 16 13:28:06 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: States
Question: What is the official state sport of Maryland?



^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Sep 16 13:09:25 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Today Monday, September 16th 2019 C.E.

We have FOUR (4) Birthdays!


Binny
DeMoriel
minifan (alyssa)
typical het boy

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Binny, DeMoriel, minifan, typical het boy



I think what my daughter's trying to say is: nyah nyah nyah nyah. Joyce, 'Faith, Hope & Trick''

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Mon Sep 16 12:37:47 2019 64.129.18.68) [Edit/Delete]
Funny thing, I read a very good book about ancient military practices.

In the chapter on the Romans the author pointed out a stark contrast between then and now.

In the modern west, armies are tasked with taking civilized, law abiding raw recruits who have been completely insulated from violence all their lives and make them into deadly warriors, and willing to kill on command.

In ancient times, armies had to take an uncivilized mob of rough men who were in most cases completely comfortable with casual violence and try to make them into a disciplined, order following cohesive unit of soldiers. :-)



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Mon Sep 16 03:55:30 2019 71.199.128.40) [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

Got it. Loon by Jack McLean. McLean attended Andover, the private
school. Unfortunately, in the spring of 1966 it did not look as if he was
going to get his diploma and he had already been turned down by five
colleges. His mother told him, make a plan. There are other colleges.
There's the military (not meant to be considered, meant to be a spur). At
that time and place, young American males were subject to the draft and
while he might have gotten a college deferment McLean thought it might not
be a bad idea to take a couple years off to serve (McLean wrote at that time
Vietnam was still a country and not a war). McLean visited each of the
Services' recruiting stations. The Army wanted three years. The Navy and Air
Force both wanted four years. OTOH, the Marines had a special two year
enlistment program. McLean enlisted in the Marines.

Family, friends, and classmates were shocked, but a distant cousin of his
mother's, Colonel Hank Aplington, sent him a letter. Here are some excerpts
...

"As of today I have been in the Marine Corps for twenty-six years. I'd
like to take the occasion to welcome you to the USMC and give you my
thoughts, which you may use or not as you wish ...

...This leads your superiors to take a different view of you from that which
your masters
(at Andover) had and I think that is is worth reflecting
on the way you will look to your superiors. They don't care who you are or
where you came from. Their interest is in what sort of job you do and what
sort of Marine you are. They are engaged in a serious purpose, preparing a
fighting machine, so that they are impressed by an individual only as he
contributes to the functioning of that machine. They do not have time or the
interest to try to develop a man who is not interested, trying to help
himself, or follow regulations. They have all the time in the world,
however, to work with those who are interested in trying. A man must make or
break himself.

The Marine Corps is big and proud with years of experience. It can be
impersonal, but it knows what it wants. It has regulations to be followed.
Many may look silly to you. Most, however, are there because they have been
proven as effective ways to accomplish the mission; to fight and win wars.
Things will be done the way the Marine Corps wants them done. If you do what
you are told to the best of your ability, you will get along and it will be
a rewarding experience. Otherwise you will get run over by the system and it
won't hurt the system a bit...

...Welcome to the club.



McLean goes on about this advice ...

...The Marine Corps cared about me as a vehicle to their own ends -
winning wars. It was important, consequently, that I be well trained, well
fed, well disciplined, well behaved, and that I follow orders.

The Marine Corps cared about the Marine Corps. It was an important early
lesson for this innocent child of privilege...
"



WG



^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Mon Sep 16 02:09:00 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Today Sunday, September 15th 2019 C.E.

We have EIGHT (8) Birthdays!


Beth M
Calypso
E0win
Gothworld
Jennejenn
Loup-Garou
MrGellar
shamelessly

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Beth M, Calypso, E0win, Gothworld
Jennejenn, Loup-Garou, MrGellar, shamelessly



I-I'm just taking things without paying for th... In what twisted dictionary is that stealing? Willow, 'Triangle'

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Sep 15 23:18:55 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Shan Like a reverse Rumplestiltskin!



^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Sep 15 21:54:40 2019 70.112.135.184) [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Mon Sep 16 03:18:18 2019
Happy Birthday Beth M, Calypso, E0win, Gothworld, Jennejenn, Loup-Garou,
MrGellar, and shamelessly!



wolfguard - I was only partly kidding, but of course I partly was.
"Brainwashing" has a very negative connotation, and we think of it as a forced
change of thinking, often accompanied by pain or fear or some kind of
overwhelming (unpleasant) immersive event, into some way of thought that we
others don't approve of. I don't know if you'd call Stockholm syndrome
brainwashing, as it seems to be more a self-imposed mental state caused by a
need to survive, but it's very close. I think we can safely call being
brought into a cult brainwashing, and the occasional "de-programming" is
probably the same kind of thing.

When you described the process of military training as " the process of
transforming a civilian into a soldier (breaking the old person and making a
new one *g*)" of course I had to go directly to brainwashing. I
grant you that it is something entered into voluntarily (if without knowing
precisely what is to come, but trusting in all the ones who had gone before).
The people emerging from it generally retain their relationships, and are not
noticeably different to the eyes of people with whom they are close. The
change is more apparent in the professional arena. Also the whole thing is
generally allowed and encouraged by society as a variety of maturation, or a
rite of passage. But call it "socialization or enculturation or
acculturation", it's still a change of thinking forced through stress and
confusion and sometimes fear. It begins to sound much like something else.
It's the degree of change, the degree of force, and of course the results,
that cause us to call it one thing or the other. What's in a name? Sometimes
a lot. ;-)



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Sun Sep 15 19:22:23 2019 71.199.128.40) [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Sun Sep 15 19:23:27 2019
White Wings,

More precisely, the recruits are being acculturated into the Marine Corp or
one of the other services. With a few exceptions, the individual who signs
up to be a Marine is a volunteer. OTOH, once that individual signs the
papers and swears the oath then they have made a commitment not easily
broken.

There's book titled, ~Loon~, about one young man's experience in the Marines
during the Vietnam era. Before or just after signing he received a letter
from a relative (?) who was a retired Marine. It's insightful as to what he
should expect and how he should proceed. I'll see if I can find it.

Returning to 'brainwashing'. While I believe you're partially kidding, I
think brainwashing is not the same as socialization or enculturation or
acculturation. If in part because brainwashing is artificial. Consider
language acquisition. For several years the learning is organic. The child
in immersed among family members conversing. No carrots, sticks, or loud
speakers. *g*



WG



^ v
Shan says:
(Sun Sep 15 13:10:28 2019 49.195.63.30) [Edit/Delete]
CM

"I really wish Trump would settle
down and not make headlines."

That's like adding a proton to a
gold nucleus. Once you do that,
it ceases to be gold.

Mind you, he is rather good at
turning gold into lead ...



^ v
Shan says:
(Sun Sep 15 13:05:01 2019 49.195.63.30) [Edit/Delete]
Good Morning CM!

(... though it's just past 11pm
here now ...)



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sun Sep 15 10:32:06 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Good morning beta!



^ v
white wings says:
(Sun Sep 15 03:33:58 2019 70.112.135.184) [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Diablo, grabodddream, Karisma, Joey Emma, SlvrStar, St George, and Texaswook!


Ebdim9th - Hee! I googled. That's a good Italian name for a pizzeria. *g*
I got my firearms experience the same way you did, although we did more skeet than hunting. I still fondly remember the smell of Hoppe's #9. In fact, I may have some out in the garage, for auld lang syne.

wolfguard - Ah, what we'd call brainwashing under other circumstances. *g*

Christopher Marlowe - Cool. Also, October will be cooler, which is nicer for being outside.

PaxilGh3tto - It's pretty quiet here these days, but we haven't forgotten our Buffy and Angel.



^ v
PaxilGh3tto says:
(Sat Sep 14 23:12:13 2019 99.165.69.238) [Edit/Delete]
i'm surprised that people still use this site! iv'e been watching buffy for as
long as i can remember and honestly it feels really good to come back to it.



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Sep 14 21:22:14 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard, white wings I think that class will be in October, I will take notes. *g*



^ v
Ebdim9th says:
(Sat Sep 14 20:42:05 2019 174.240.129.103) [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Sat Sep 14 20:44:50 2019
WG I'm losing more and more of my tiny brain every day.... and thank ya for the birthday belated type well-wishing and greeting... all in one....



^ v
wwolfguard says:
(Sat Sep 14 18:54:02 2019 71.199.128.40) [Edit/Delete]
Ebdim9th,

Belated Happy Birthday! I'm getting younger everyday. *g* Yourself?


White Wings,

I agree on both ends, cop and suspect. OTOH, just the other day I talked
with a former cop, a short person, who said he was always able to
communicate to the suspect what was going to happen in such a way that he
claimed if he wanted, the suspect would put on the handcuffs themselves. *g*
He also said if ever felt resistance as he was cuffing, then he would push
the suspect away and tase them.

Yelling at recruits is in part to get them comfortable operating under
stress, but it's also part of the process of transforming a civilian into a
soldier (breaking the old person and making a new one *g*).



Christopher Marlowe,

Could be fun. You'll be taught the fundamental four rules of gun safety, the
particular rules of the firing range, the manual of arms for the particular
firearm you'll be using, and finally the fundamentals of shooting (stances,
grip, sight alignment, and trigger manipulation).1 I suspect for
malfunctions they'll tell you to carefully place the firearm on bench in
front of you with the muzzle pointed down range and signal the instructor or
range master.

If they go beyond the above, it may be to discuss the laws of self-defense,
South Dakotan style (the particulars vary from state to state).

Traditionally beginners have been taught with .22LR caliber firearms, but
it's possible today people begin with what they're looking to buy (Yes! In
many states you do not need any training to buy a gun. I think this also
has been true for buying motorboats. *g*). If they begin training with
something larger than .22LR it will probably be 9mm if you're being taught
with semi-auto's and .38 special if you're using revolvers.

Let me know how much of the above I got right or wrong. *g*


1 There're several stances to choose from. The two most used are
the "Isosceles" and "Weaver". I'll bet your instructor will teach Isosceles.
In many civilian self-defense situations things happen so fast that there's
little time to use these stances. The gun almost becomes a knife.

On those rare occasions when I have carried a handgun I used short-barreled
revolvers, "snubbies". I pay attention to what's happening around me and
because bad guys want to ambush, they will look for someone else. If I
screw-up and get ambushed, I'll likely have to draw the gun with one hand
and jab it at/into the attacker. Revolvers are more forgiving of this
tactic.


WG



^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Sat Sep 14 15:06:24 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Today Saturday, September 24th 2019 C.E.

We have SEVEN (7) Birthdays!


Diablo
grabodddream
Karisma
Joey Emma
SlvrStar
st george
Texaswook

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Diablo, grabodddream, Karisma, Joey Emma
SlvrStar, st george, Texaswook



First of all, 'Posse?' Pass Cordelia, 'Helpless''

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
Ebdim9th says:
(Sat Sep 14 13:26:38 2019 64.28.52.183) [Edit/Delete]
white wings I had a big pizza pie party at a place called the Ravenite....

ChristopherMarlowe holy crap! Using of the firearms? I haven't done that since my dad useta take me hunting when I was just an interval fifth!

Wolfguardian! how are ya? I see ya discussin, but how are ya doin?

Agent Cooper doing any secret angenty tings? Have you ever been to Boston in the fall?

Heya Comma! Long time no blab with ya....



^ v
Comma says:
(Sat Sep 14 12:13:52 2019 50.234.254.246) [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Sat Sep 14 12:19:02 2019
white wings: I did give a wrong clue. The reason that I am keeping an eye on the storm, I have to know where our military is located at all times. We move personnel and equipment away from the path of hurricanes.

Where are we? We shopped on Old Route 66 yesterday, enjoyed eating at a restaurant named 'Sweet Tomatoes', and a lot of the roads start with 'San'.

Comma



^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Sep 14 03:00:57 2019 70.112.135.184) [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe - Using them? Have ear protection. I personally like lightweight, flexible gloves. Less oil on your hands, less slipping if you sweat, and you don't put oil from your hands onto metal. And remember that above all, you must hit the backstop. It's nice to hit the target, and satisfying to hit the part of the target that you want to hit, but it's critical to hit the backstop.



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Sat Sep 14 02:41:33 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Using them, I think we will be at the firing range.



^ v
white wings says:
(Sat Sep 14 02:35:14 2019 70.112.135.184) [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday FOSMan and Mintaka!!

DaddyCatALSO - Your problem is that you actually remember your painful experience. That makes it harder to get over.

Ebdim9th - You may be late, but you posted! We'll take that as a win. I hope it was a happy birthday.

wolfguard - I have to stop and be stupid when someone unexpectedly tells me to do something, so I can understand the brain freeze. I feel like I have to integrate the intrusion back into my reality. And that's just for simple one-on-one interactions. I had to consider my options for a second even after I realized I'd been bitten by a rattlesnake. *g* I hate to think how long it would take me to deal with one or more people hollering commands at me again and again. It just seems to me as though it would make me go totally blank. Is that why in military establishments of training the instructors like to yell in the face of instructees, to get them used to thinking in the face of chaos?

On the other hand, I can appreciate that the people doing the telling (or hollering) in tense situations must feel that they have to forcefully make someone pay attention before someone (possibly themselves) is injured by a violent reaction. It's two points of view that can easily have a tragic result, like the Egyptian airliner incident you related.

wolfguard, Christopher Marlowe, Agent Cooper - Just give the bad guys an allergic reaction. It should render them helpless. Yes, I am feeling the ragweed and fall elm, why do you ask?

Comma - Is the vacation in the path of the possible storm?



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Sep 13 22:57:16 2019 4.28.180.2) [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

Firearms in general or firearms and law enforcement?

WG



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Sep 13 22:44:09 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Fri Sep 13 22:44:29 2019
wolfguard, Agent Cooper One upcoming class is on firearms.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Sep 13 21:47:56 2019 4.28.180.2) [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper,

Everyone knows the only way to get info quick from a bad guy is through a left
hook to the chops. Buffy taught us that with Spike. *g*

WG



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Sep 13 19:21:55 2019 64.129.18.68) [Edit/Delete]
Wolfguard/Chris Marlowe: Are you going to learn taze "perps" and interrogate "skels?"



^ v
Comma says:
(Fri Sep 13 19:01:04 2019 50.234.254.246) [Edit/Delete]
On my annual 'take the wife on vacation' trip. I'm still watching the tropical storm trying to come up the Florida coastline.

Comma



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Sep 13 18:49:06 2019 71.199.128.40) [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Fri Sep 13 18:50:22 2019
Christopher Marlowe,

You have to tell the person what you want them to do, usually several
times...

Show me your hands(!) Show me your hands(!) Show me your hands(!)

Get on the ground(!) ....

Drop the gun! ...


Sometimes though it seems as if the person doesn't hear or has a brain
freeze.



Back in the 70's an Egyptian airliner strayed into Israeli airspace. Israeli
fighters flew alongside and warned the pilot to leave Israeli airspace or be
shot down. This was done several times to no effect. The Israels shot the
plane down. Afterwards it was learned that the pilot was having problems
with his navigation equipment and was so focused on figuring out what was
going on and trying to fix it that he simply tuned-out the Israeli warnings.



WG



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Sep 13 18:12:29 2019 64.129.18.68) [Edit/Delete]
Chris Marlowe: I just keep thinking about those "Police Academy" movies. :-)



^ v
Ebdim9th says:
(Fri Sep 13 15:21:37 2019 174.235.145.132) [Edit/Delete]
Eddie Money died!!! :( :( :(



^ v
Ebdim9th says:
(Fri Sep 13 15:14:07 2019 174.235.145.132) [Edit/Delete]
**Numfar does the dance of shame* I totally forgot my birthday Bronze day, thank you white wings lostinamerica ChristopherMarlowe and you all everybody!


So, CM you ready to subdue suspects (or rowdy neighbors) yet?



^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Fri Sep 13 15:11:45 2019 64.129.18.68) [Edit/Delete]
Daughter Cooper and I watched "Listening to Fear" last night.

At the end of the ep she turned to me and said matter of factly "Riley is going to break up with Buffy!" She's a perceptive kid. :-)



^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Sep 13 14:22:37 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Fri Sep 13 14:32:44 2019
wolfguard, white wings He definitely talked about tone of voice and mentioned that regardless of a particular type of force used, he continues to speak to the individual to get them to comply.

He was experienced enough that he could choose a less lethal force simply because he knew it would be effective.

Most often, he was dealing with drug/alcohol addicted individuals, who are more oblivious to pain. Most of the cases he talked about were domestic violence situations.

The officer mentioned that he would prefer to be tazered versus being peppered sprayed. Being sprayed was an effective method, while tazering may or may not work. Tazering also could cause additional injury as the person would simply fall down, having no control over his/her body. His use of the baton appeared to be more to disable the individual, whack their legs and they go down.

I assumed the woman in the video was under the influence of something, she appeared to be 'out of it'.



^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Fri Sep 13 14:08:59 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Today Friday, September 13th 2019 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!


FOSman
Mintaka

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to FOSman, Mintaka



Also, I can kill you with my brain. River, 'Trash''

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Fri Sep 13 14:05:46 2019 199.127.148.10) [Edit/Delete]
white wings Thanks, I'll pass that along.

I have no problem with wooden kitchen matches, but after a painful experience as a child I cannot use paper matches



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Fri Sep 13 06:46:25 2019 71.199.128.40) [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

There are variations on the scale. For instance, if some folks are becoming
rowdy simply the appearance of a police officer might lead them to calm down
or disperse (and sometimes it just escalates the situation, context matters
much). Facial expression can scale. One famous trainer/cop said his co-
workers use to ask why he smiled at trouble-makers. He replied it gave an
additional step on the ladder. I'm smiling you, but then you went and did
something stupid and now I'm not smiling. What might come next? Oops. Sorry
officer.

So before we even get to talking, we have tools for possibly changing a
person's behavior. Talking is a whole art and includes tone and cadence as
well as what's actually said. Sometimes - sometimes - simply letting them
tell you their story is a way of letting them vent. Go to Amazon and search
"Verbal Judo" (or google it). There's also an older book applying Aikido
principles - not techniques - to social interactions. I can't remember the
name, but I believe the author is Dodson or Dodgson?

Before applying any physical techniques, 'touch' alone can sometimes calm
someone down or disrupt their spiral; however, it's so contextually
dependent. I was once providing information to an officer about a
perpetrator. The officer was a sergeant and during the course of our
conversation he touched my forearm and immediately began apologizing. I
thought and said, 'no big deal', and we continued on. I had no authority
over this officer and I don't dress to impress, but he clearly believed he
had overstepped some boundary that I didn't perceive.

"Pressure Points" can refer to a number of techniques. Most involve pain. If
you stabilize a person's thumb so it can't move and then press the tip of
you thumb into the base of the person's thumb it will often produce enough
pain and surprise to get someone to release their grip. I've also seen it
used to get homeless people who are feigning sleep to 'wake-up'. The trouble
with trying to use pain to force compliance is a lot of people can tolerate
a lot of pain. I suspect most police departments (PD) probably use various
holds and joint locks to achieve 'compliance'.

Physical Strikes can be applied to achieve a variety of ends - distracting a
person to possibly killing a person - so you can speak of scale of strikes
and/or targets for strikes (jabbing an extended knuckle into the back of
someone's wrist is at a different end of the scale than jabbing an extended
knuckle into a person's trachea).1

I skipped pepper spray and TASERs, because I suspect a lot of situations
jump from verbal or holds to physical violence so quickly the officer cannot
deploy spray or TASER (not all officers carry TASERS). Real-life
struggles/fights are so close that if spray is used, then everyone gets
sprayed and I don't think officers want to get sprayed. *g*

A lot of cops, especially older ones, will probably forgo hand strikes and
go straight to a baton or the like. You can break your hand hitting people.
A baton saves your hands from damage. It is possible to use a baton to get
compliance or to put someone on the ground to cuff, but under emotional
stress it's also easy to just start flailing with it. Again, context.

Note the scale of force is not a ladder. You don't have to start with the
least amount of force. You start with the force appropriate for the threat.
If an officer is using her voice to get a stubborn person out of his car and
then that person pulls out a gun - the officer isn't going touch base with
all those steps. She's going to draw her firearm.

For dramatic purposes, Hollywood often has cops and suspects pointing guns
at each other and then 'discussing' the situation. In real-lufe, when people
point guns at each other, usually one or all begin firing.


1 Police can use physical force to affect compliance where a
civilian could not. Why? Because a civilian is suppose to make great effort
to avoid violence. As civilians, we can try to persuade someone to do this
or that, but we cannot use physical force to try to make them comply. So
usually if a civilian resorts to physical strikes - legally - then it's
because they cannot escape a situation and fear serious injury or death (in
which they case they may wish they had weapon). If a civilian resorts to
physical strikes and they are not in fear of serious injury or death, then
they are probably breaking the law. Bar fights, road rage, etc. - illegal.
You can't hit someone because the annoyed or insulted you and expect the law
will smile on you.


WG



^ v
white wings says:
(Fri Sep 13 04:34:25 2019 70.112.135.184) [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe - The police see many things that we would find scarring. I'm sure it affects them that way too, but they have to have coping mechanisms. I believe you when you say it is...impacting. I can't imagine seeing someone just stabbing herself.

The State Hospitals and Schools have to deal with that kind of thing a lot. Drugs like the antipsychotics work, but they don't always work. Someone can be quite peaceful, and suddenly stab someone with a pen or bite or strike out. Again, I haven't seen this, only been told of it. The furniture in the wards is rather heavy, and not subject to being thrown. TVs are in lucite cages. That I've seen. The staff are trained in approved methods of physically subduing patients if they cannot be talked down, various holds and stuff. I've been told that one of the better methods is a mattress sandwich. But one has to remember that when wielding the mattresses, one must not let fingers curl around the edge of the mattress. There is a story of someone getting the end of a finger bitten off. But mattresses are not going to work out on the street where the police are, especially not inside of cars.

I can only say that over the years I've had to work after dark a lot (before we could log in remotely), and I never felt as safe as I did when my office was on the grounds of a State Hospital. The people who needed to be locked up were very thoroughly locked up, and people from the outside were afraid to come on the grounds.



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Fri Sep 13 03:44:48 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Fri Sep 13 03:53:31 2019
wolfguard, white wings Tonight's class had two presentations: One on
CIT (Crisis Intervention Training), which officers learn how to deal people
in various kinds of crisis. Interesting, but not super-captivating.

The second presentation was on the Use of Force, which was..I don't know if
interesting is the right word, but a bit eye-opening. The guy doing the
class was good, but has a very intimidating look and knows a wide variety of
martial arts and other techniques.

He talked about when Deadly Force is/is not allowed, and talked about an
escalating scale in the use of force.

Talking - Pressure Points - Pepper Spray - Tazer - Physical Force (blows) -
Baton - K9 - Less Lethal Shotgun and Guns.

The above goes from least lethal to most lethal, although circumstances may
dictate a particular use of force versus another.

The class ended with him showing a five-minute body cam footage of him
responding to a call about a woman with a knife. The officer arrived to
find that the woman had apparently stabbed a male, locked herself up in a
car and was stabbing herself with the knife. We saw the officer break the
car window with the baton and him tazer her before he and another officer
were able to remove her from a car. Apparently she stabbed herself in
various places at least 14 times.

I was...impacted to say the least.



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white wings says:
(Fri Sep 13 03:04:35 2019 70.112.135.184) [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday andyourlittledogtoo, Annointed 1, Chrystal_Durnby, fire&ice, Kameko, Leila, Rose, Slayer_Spike, and Spacey!


DaddyCatALSO - I'm sorry your niece is having these problem. On the bright side, everyone I've known who had cataract surgery loved their new lenses and eyesight.

wolfguard - Thanks for the tire PSA.

Christopher Marlowe - Learn how the streets are kept safe!

Agent Cooper - It's amazing how fast a little information can sometimes reverse trauma-induced reactions, although since son Cooper is younger, he may retain some residual illogical reactions. Or he may snap back faster. *g*

I experienced it once and was astounded, though my reactions weren't as extreme. Until I was 21, I was very much afraid of striking matches. I knew it wasn't logical, and I could force myself to do it, but I'd approach the match and box as though they were going to bite me. I figured I was just going to have to live with it forever. Then one day I casually mentioned it to my mother, and her jaw dropped, and she said she never knew I felt that way. It seems that when I was nine months, she had left me sleeping in my crib, and went into another room until she heard whimpering. I had escaped the crib, somehow gotten on top of my father's desk, found a box of matches there, and lit my shoelaces on fire. She put out the fire, of course, and since I wasn't burned and seemed calm, she never thought more about it except to watch me more carefully. After she told me about it, I was never again afraid of matches. Brains are funny things. Like a box of chocolates.



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wolfguard says:
(Fri Sep 13 02:51:35 2019 4.28.180.2) [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

You should have interesting tales to tell us on your return. *g*

WG



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Sep 12 23:37:36 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Heading out for my police academy class!



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Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Sep 12 22:30:58 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: History
Question: Who was the 25th Vice President of the US?
Answer: Roosevelt!

Trivia Prez: notsoShyGirl



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Agent Cooper says:
(Thu Sep 12 19:08:20 2019 64.129.18.68) [Edit/Delete]
Thanks for the comments guys. Son Cooper is actually doing better already. I think just the act of mom and dad talking about it with him, and then the teacher as well, made an immediate difference. We'll have to see how gym class goes next time but we'll get him squared away. Teacher says they'll do baby steps if need be to get it so gym and music activities gradually become normal for him.


Wolfguard (WOWolfguard!) I like the new moniker better! It makes you think WOW, it's WOLFGUARD. That's advertising! :-)

Yeah, gotta check that well. Glad you dodged another flat. Might be a good idea to see if you can figure out where that came from if possible, IE, is there any construction going on near your regular route to work, etc. Maybe you can steer clear of that stretch of road for a bit.

I learned a similar lesson from bike commuting. Whenever you get a flat, you gotta check the inside of the tire and the inside of the wheel to make sure there's no foreign object there. It's a pretty common newbie mistake NOT to and just put the tube back in, pump it up, ride off and flat again immediately. I speak from experience... :-)



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DaddyCatALSO says:
(Thu Sep 12 18:27:58 2019 199.127.148.4|199.127.148.6) [Edit/Delete]
Just letting my friends know, my niece has her first cataract surgery scheduled for 10/21, then the other eye some weeks later. She went from 20/20 with glasses to legally blind in a few months; said the ophthalmologist agreed to let her keep her drivers license (she drove home slowly) at home in return for promising not to cancel the surgery. This on top of months of maintenance issues with her new house. Great way to kick off her 50s.



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wowlfguard says:
(Thu Sep 12 18:14:58 2019 71.199.128.40) [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Thu Sep 12 18:16:37 2019
Agent Cooper,

I suspect simply because they are young kids have less experiences to use to
realize a given association of things are not necessarily always tied
together. A consultant and researcher on criminal behavior was once talking
with inmates at a prison. One of them asked him, ~What you've told us about
your own youth was just like ours. Why didn't you become like us?~ The
consultant reflected and realized it was because there had been one adult in
his youth who'd showed him there were other ways to go about living. He'd
only know this adult a short time, but it made his realize there was more to
life that what he had known.



TIRE WARNING

Yesterday afternoon my right rear tire got shredded. Got it replaced and the
tech said it had been punctured by a nail. I though there was something
more, because the whole right back side had sounded like there were rumbling
demons in the trunk. Anyway, tire was fixed and had no problems for the next
12 miles or so. This morning I heard and on and off rumbling sound, again
from the right rear. Stopped and looked ...

I found what looked to be a three-inch piece of rusted chain link fence
embedded in the wheel-well. I pulled on it and more kept coming out of the
wheel-well - a total of ~10 inches. Apparently the tire hit it and launched
back into the wheel well where most of it pierce through leaving a few
inches out to puncture the original tire. Had I not caught it, then it might
have punctured the new tire.

LESSON: If and when you have to change a tire because of a flat, check the
wheel well to make sure the cause is not still hanging about.


WG



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DaddyCatALSO says:
(Thu Sep 12 14:09:46 2019 199.127.148.4|199.127.148.6) [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper Good job on that.



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notsoShyGirl says:
(Thu Sep 12 13:27:45 2019 206.124.19.175) [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
Theodore Roosevelt



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lostinamerica says:
(Thu Sep 12 10:58:52 2019 73.58.128.92) [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper--So glad you
were able to figure out his needs
sooner rather than later! If this
isn't a cautionary tale on how
much kids realize what's going on
in their world and internalize it
I don't know what is :(


Happy Belated Birthday
wiccachick!



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Trivia Girl says:
(Thu Sep 12 10:30:14 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: History
Question: Who was the 25th Vice President of the US?



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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Thu Sep 12 10:16:33 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Today Thursday, September 12th 2019 C.E.

We have NINE (9) Birthdays!


andyourlittledogtoo
Annointed 1
Chrystal_Durnby
fire&ice
Kameko
Leila
Rose
Slayer_Spike
Spacey

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to andyourlittledogtoo, Annointed 1, Chrystal_Durnby, fire&ice, Kameko, Leila, Rose, Slayer_Spike, Spacey



Weird love's better than no love.Buffy, 'Intervention'

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



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white wings says:
(Thu Sep 12 03:15:36 2019 70.112.135.184) [Edit/Delete]
Still remembering 9/11, in 01 and 12.

wolfguard - Ah. Perhaps Joss thought the audience wouldn't be able to appreciate the meaning? *g*

Christopher Marlowe - I had heart failure at the reports of tornadoes in SD. Then I remembered that you had been posting, and then I remembered that Sioux Falls is just a leeetle distance from you. But I'm glad nothing descended on you!



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wolfguard says:
(Thu Sep 12 02:01:57 2019 4.28.180.2) [Edit/Delete]
White Wings,

From one of the lost BtVS scripts. *g*

WG



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white wings says:
(Thu Sep 12 01:38:42 2019 70.112.135.184) [Edit/Delete]
Sorta passing through now and then ...



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Sep 12 00:59:12 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Anyone aroundabouts tonight?



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Sep 12 00:19:50 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper Glad you were able to figure out what was going on with your little one so soon, kids sure deeper than one would think!



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Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Sep 11 22:03:55 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: What dimension did Jhiera of She[/i] come from?
Answer: Oden Tal

Trivia Master of the Universe: notsoShyGirl
Trivia Comedians of the Universe: wolfguard, Agent Cooper



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white wings says:
(Wed Sep 11 20:41:23 2019 70.112.135.184) [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday bitter_sweet, hollygurl, Other Kitty, thewitchgirl, and wiccachick!


Agent Cooper - I guess 9/11 is as good a day as any to start fighting PTSD. Poor kid. Good job on the teacher's part rooting that out instead of passing it off as a behavior problem, and all of you for realizing what is going on. He may be a little young for his rational self to talk to the emotional side, but I'm sure there's a way to help. At the very least, explaining that a seizure isn't dying ought to lessen some fears.

wolfguard - Between one's towel and the beginnings of forever? Deep. Very deep. ;-)



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Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Sep 11 18:38:54 2019 64.129.18.68) [Edit/Delete]
So this happened to me today:

Okay so, Son Cooper is just starting Kindergarten. Lately, he tells us that he cries at school. Almost every day he tells us this.

Being Kindergarten age, he's very hard to get any specific info out of. Wife Cooper and I of course try to get him to talk to us and tell us more about why he feels this way so we can parse out what's bothering him and what's going on, but he doesn't give much detail.

Being at that age, it's hard to tell if he's even telling the truth or making this up. We're just at the point setting up a meeting with the teacher to figure this out.

Yesterday Son Cooper told us that he cried at gym and had to go the office. ? So that got us thinking we'd better call his teacher sooner rather than later and figure this out asap.

Oddly enough the teacher had already left us a message yesterday asking us to call her today but we didn't get it till later in the evening.

So Wife Cooper and I conference call teacher this morning. And boy did we get an eye opener.

See, son Cooper has been crying whenever his class does any music, or when they have to go to gym class. Apparently gym is especially bad, he wont go in the gym at all.

Today on the phone the teacher told us that yesterday when SC refused to set foot in the gym and cried she sat down with him in the nurses office where it was quiet, calmed him down and asked him why he didnt like gym.

That's when he mentioned Wife Cooper's seizure from last January at his birthday party, and that he was afraid that mommy wasnt okay.

And BOOM that hit us like a ton of bricks and it all fell into place.

Keep in mind, Son Cooper hasnt said a word about the seizure to us. Like ever. Even after it happened. I honestly didnt even think he remembered it, and I figured that was a good thing.

But he did remember, and apparently he internalized that. So it all fits.

See, Wife Cooper's seizure happened at his birthday party, there were lots of other kids running around and there was music and it was noisy and bright. Also, over last winter they had some events at the school and Wife Cooper brought Son to several of them. At one particular event they had loud music and bright flashing strobe lights set up, IN THE GYM. Wife Cooper got disoriented and dizzy from the lights and almost passed out (we found out later that was partly because of the antiseizure meds she was on. The ones she didn't need :-( )

Anyway, neither of us remembered any of that. We never put it together. And keep in mind, Son Cooper has never mentioned it.

But apparently the poor little guy does remember all of that, and what's more it has all sort of imprinted on him that whenever theres loud lights or music or kids running around something bad might happen to mommy.

I felt so bad at that moment. I had no idea my poor little guy was going through that.

Needless to say Wife Cooper and I, teacher and maybe social worker at school are now going to work to help my little man out and get him over this.

At least now we have an idea what's going on and I'm just glad we found out now.



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wolfguard says:
(Wed Sep 11 18:20:53 2019 71.199.128.40) [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl,

There is a shadow dimension, beyond that which is known to mammals. It is the
middle ground between sea and land, between backshore and offshore, and it
lies between one's towel and the beginnings of forever. This is the dimension
of transitions. It is an area which we call the Intertidal Dimension.

complements to The Twilight Sone



WG



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Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Sep 11 14:12:04 2019 64.129.18.68) [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl: A dimension entirely composed of shrimp.



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notsoShyGirl says:
(Wed Sep 11 13:02:52 2019 206.124.19.175) [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
Oden Tal



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Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Sep 11 10:25:53 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: What dimension did Jhiera of She[/] come from?



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TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Wed Sep 11 10:20:22 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Today Monday, September 9th 2019 C.E.
9/11

We have FIVE (5) Birthdays!


bitter_sweet
hollygurl
Other Kitty
thewitchgirl
wiccachick

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to bitter_sweet, hollygurl, Other Kitty, thewitchgirl
wiccachick



I-I'm just taking things without paying for th... In what twisted dictionary is that stealing? Willow, 'Triangle'

to be added to the birthday list, please email oldbdeyes@hotmail.com



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white wings says:
(Wed Sep 11 03:27:34 2019 70.112.135.184) [Edit/Delete]
Happy Birthday Bronson, David, LavenderMagik, Ozlet #2, Rianes, and Shaniah!


Christopher Marlowe - I can't join you in being tired of Trump, but I can sympathize. It seems as though every other eight years we all spend time being very tired of a president. It's very hard. *g* But I don't know that the president is always the main problem. I love the old saying:

No mans life, liberty, or property are safe while the Legislature is in session

There's a poster with that saying in one of the clump of buildings that is the headquarters of the Texas Health and Human Services Commission. It's the building where IT is located, by a dingy elevator, not the (very slightly) more elegant surrounding where a legislator might walk in.

I'm very tired. I spent the day trying to figure out how something works. I was the one who set it up twenty years ago. I felt very gray under the hair coloring. *sigh*



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Sep 11 00:15:04 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Maverick Who do you think trump will pick next as his NSA head?



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Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Sep 10 23:12:01 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: What was Xanders nightmare in Nightmares?
Answer: Clowns

Trivia Masters: notsoscaryGirl, Agent Cooper, Maverick!



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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Sep 10 23:00:15 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
I really wish Trump would settle down and not make headlines. I'd rather that the UK get the top headlines for a while.



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Maverick says:
(Tue Sep 10 18:34:36 2019 68.51.139.52) [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl: Answer


Maverick


Don't Dream It's Over




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Agent Cooper says:
(Tue Sep 10 15:35:25 2019 64.129.18.68) [Edit/Delete]
As a NY Giants fan, I'm really glad football season if over. It's nice to get it out of the way early so I can free up my Sunday afternoons for the entire Fall season.

Trivia Girl: Clowns!

This rewatch is helping with my Trivia game for sure.



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notsoShyGirl says:
(Tue Sep 10 13:17:56 2019 206.124.19.186) [Edit/Delete]
Trivia Girl
Being chased by a clown



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lostinamerica says:
(Tue Sep 10 12:25:36 2019 73.58.128.92) [Edit/Delete]
Comma--Is that just talk someone started because there happens to be an
ex-coach as AD or something really being discussed? I'd be surprised if it's the
latter--I don't believe you can go back. Many people were unhappy Fulmer was
fired after one bad season, though following the national championship their play
became inconsistent. Even so, their inconsistent play still meant they were
ranked and went to bowl games, a great improvement over the last few seasons.

Be careful what you wish for--now you got what you got, and you need to ride it
out for at least four years to see if the latest coach can turn it around. This
hiring a new coach every two years is ridiculous--how can we successfully recruit
with the merry-go-round we've had here? How can we attract a good coach with our
current track record, who's gonna sign up for that, produce quickly or be fired?



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Trivia Girl says:
(Tue Sep 10 10:19:38 2019 209.159.255.231) [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Trivial Pursuit

Category: Buffy
Question: What was Xanders nightmare in Nightmares?


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