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^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Jan 19 03:35:00 2017 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Thank you! I understand now.

^ v
Comma says:
(Thu Jan 19 01:56:07 2017 [Edit/Delete]
I am going into the main office tomorrow morning and am staying there until Monday morning. Depending if things stay calm, I will spend four days sleeping, eating, and playing games, only broke up with talking to our overseas associates. My main hope is that I really do not have to work.


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Thu Jan 19 01:34:28 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

No, it's the opposite. For example, a group of people are negotiating health
care programs. One says, "It has to be single-payer" or "It cannot be single-
payer."1 A less confrontation approach would be for people to
express their interests and concerns and then looking over the entirety for
possible areas of agreement or compromise.

1 And they really mean it, i.e. it's not a position to bargain


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Thu Jan 19 00:28:27 2017 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Positional negotiations? Is that like, I'll move my opinion/view a bit if you'll do the same?

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Jan 18 23:59:57 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

The other night I watched Professor Grim's lecture, "Rational Discussion
in a Polarized Context". It is part of his course, "The Philosopher's
Toolkit" offered by "The Great Courses". A few notes ...

- Political polarization is greater today.

- OTOH, the US is much less polarized culturally.

- One cause of polarized discussions are people who are so certain what
they believe is true, that when they see, read, or hear information that
is not in accordance with the belief, then they immediately dismiss the
information as wrong.

- Rationality is determined by the totality of information. Given this,
irrationality is evidenced by a closing of the mind to new information.

- As I understood him, from practical point-of-view one cannot know the
totality of information, so rationality/irrationality is not an either-or
assessment, but a 'sliding scale' assessment.

- He listed some ways to minimize polarization based on Fisher and Ury's
book, Getting to Yes

1. Remove ties to ego and emotion (How?).

2. Debates are not the best way to discuss issues.

3. Set objective criteria for judging or assessing the issue before
discussing or debating it (some would see doing this as part of the

4. Avoid positional negotiations

5. Substitute confrontational formats with collaborative ones.


^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Jan 18 23:11:48 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Double Trivial Pursuits
: Buffy and Angel Editionn

Question: What kind of necklace did Angel give Buffy in Welcome to the Hellmouth?
Question: What did Buffy allow Angel to do to her in Graduation Day part 2?

Answer; Cross Necklace, bite/draw blood from her neck

Trivia Honorary Whedons: OldManFan
Trivia back to the drawing board: Agent Cooper

^ v
lostinamerica says:
(Wed Jan 18 23:01:52 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Yay! MTVA!

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Jan 18 21:41:40 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Just thinking; David Caruso, Erik Estrada, a nd Farrah Fawcett are all proverbial names for someone who is getting movie offers and pulls out of a contract in an ensemble TV show to take those offers, and bombs.
And yet, when Don Knotts left his second banana part on The Andy Griffith Show in the mid 60s, he pulled it off and did quite well as a comedic leading man for about 10 years before he had to go back to TV. So, until the others flopped, their decisions seemed reasonable.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Jan 18 21:39:45 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Wed Jan 18 21:41:15 2017
Agent Cooper,

Baden Bridge should be Baden or Badon Hill (or Mountain).

ETA: "Sauces" invasion. LOL


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Jan 18 21:37:19 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Wolfguard: "The British have a long, proud tradition of eating bland, tasteless food. And they've protected it for centuries despite numerous attempts by the French to invade them with sauces."


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Jan 18 21:23:31 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper,

I thought Arthur became the King, because he pulled the sword from the

Myth aside, what history I've read on the search for a real Arthur
concluded he was a ~war chieftain (warlord?) who commanded a band of
cavalry which was used as a sort of rapid mobile respond force in Roman
Britain's war against the Anglo-Saxons.

Rome withdrew from Britain near the end of the 4th century AD. Raiders and
invaders soon began touring the Island. At least one historian writes that
Arthur, a Roman-Brit, lead his cavalry in twelve battles against invading
Angles and Saxons. The final battle was at ~~Baden Bridge (???) and
resulted in driving the invaders away for what came to be 50 odd years.
The historian said this half century of relative peace allowed
Christianity to lay its roots deep enough to eventually convert the Anglo-
Saxons when they returned and defeated the Brits (or drove them into


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Jan 18 20:36:54 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Deadguy Memorial: I went to my local RPG gaming con last Sept. Got to play 5th ed D&D! And I went to a local comic-con over the Summer, in July I think that was.

Oh, and the local Renaissance fair last June.

Someday, somehow, my dream is to go to Gen Con just once in my life.

Yeah. I'm a big dork.

Question: What kind of necklace did Angel give Buffy in Welcome to the Hellmouth?

A. A necklace of protection, +2

Question: What did Buffy allow Angel to do to her in Graduation Day part 2?

A. An immature person could go full Quagmire on this answer. *giggity!*

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Jan 18 20:18:04 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Chris Marlowe: Yeah, the hat thing is a bit weird, but to each their own. It's a free country.

A few of the women here at my job are going down to DC tomorrow to do the million women march thing.

They said there are buses chartered for the trip. (We're in upstate NY) and quite a few are going down.

These ladies were very vocal pro-hill anti-trumpers and so they're pretty excited about going down to protest or march or whatever it is they're going to do.

They're all nice people. I hope they have a good time.

I'm kinda jealous because at least they'll get to be at the inauguration. I wonder if there's still time for me to pose as a fellow Woman Marcher Supporter or something and get a spot on the bus. I can hide my MAGA hat under my shirt till we get to DC.... :-)

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ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Jan 18 19:51:34 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper There is a march going on where I live too. And there is some debate over whether or not to allow the '***** hats'

^ v
KAM says:
(Wed Jan 18 18:06:33 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Hello again,

Agent Cooper: Surely we are seeing the "highlights" of this nonsense, but I think you underestimate how pervasive and widespread this is.
I do agree that the "snowflakes" can't compete against more...stable individuals...IF things haven't been so distorted by nonsense.

You are also right that even though I think this stuff is more widespread than you indicate, it isn't a majority. However, I think that it is important to consider that this mindset, and load of nonsense is being presented as normal, and spread by the media. I'm of the opinion that the younger generation really doesn't have a good capacity to discern between propaganda/media bias and reality. If it shows up on social media, it's basically accepted as long as they agree with it.

The old argument "Oh, that's just a bunch of idiocy on the internet" is invalid today. There is no such line for this younger generation. What we're seeing is a lack of discerning between nonsense on the internet and the real world, and the result is that nonsense becomes more common.

Bottom line--I think you are very much underestimating the pervasive, insidious nature of this sort of media on younger generations (and perhaps older ones as well).

Things aren't going to stabilize or get less crazy as a result of this election--they're going to get more hysterical.

I have pushed back significantly from "news" and such following the election aftermath. I've got lots of other things to do. However, doing so isn't really going to change what the situation is.

Maverick: Well, I am not sure I can say what motivated voters, but I'm pretty sure it isn't a widespread return to core Constitutional principles. This was a backlash election, and I do not predict it will lead to a lasting shift.
I think people had a sense of being ignored, or that what they were being sold in the media didn't match reality, but I'm not sure that it elevated beyond that. In some cases, I'm sure it did.

It is clear to me that there's a variety of efforts to push a narrative that the Obama Presidency has been this glowing golden age. "No scandals" is one that I find particularly funny. That will continue.

Ty King Fan

^ v
OldManFan says:
(Wed Jan 18 17:57:35 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Wed Jan 18 21:55:19 2017
Trivia Girl - a silver cross and she allowed (practically forced) him to
suck her blood.


^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Wed Jan 18 17:35:17 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper Amber was originally panning to go to the protest rally in DC, but is now going to t he one in LA. On facebook I actually wished her a good protest march, like some clueless 60s grandmother.

^ v
Maverick says:
(Wed Jan 18 16:59:46 2017 [Edit/Delete]
KAM: I didn't use enlightened as being particularly intelligent, just "aware" of the lies told to further the cause of Marxism, etc. And I believe that Obama absolutely WOULD have taken the country as far as he could and that only constant push-back kept him from grabbing guns, etc. Conservative Talk Radio (Rush and others) exposed Obama's intent which was constantly hidden by the Media. (Frontline [PBS] is doing an extended report on the history of Obamacare and, do you believe, they have yet to mention the Obama LIES ("You can keep your existing plan, you can keep your doctor, and you will save $2,500 per year on premiums.") Even so, he has populated the government with plenty of stealth socialists and it will take lots of work to pull them out by the roots. That is part of the Marxist plan. But the whole mocking of the disability of the reporter (while knowing exactly what they were doing--in the same speech Trump imitated some flustered General in the same exact manner) is just EVIL. Perhaps you are skeptical of Trump but don't allow that to let you give the forces of Marxist tyranny get a pass. I suggest you read "Crippled America" by Trump to get a sense of where he comes from and where he's planning on going. If it's not in your library, I saw it real cheap at "Ollies" if you have one around you.

Agent Cooper: Alternate story, he pulls the sword Excalibur out of a Stone.[p.

Where Do You Go?

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Jan 18 16:53:09 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Kam: The news makes things seem much worse than they really are. They take inconsequential things and hype them up into mountains.

Take the college snowflake thing. This has been hyped beyond belief.

In reality these snowflake college SJWs are just a tiny vocal minority. They are outnumbered by far by average every day millenials who are very grounded, studying and working hard and laughing just as much as we do at the special snowflakes in those Ivy League colleges.

As for the real snowflakes, of which as I said I believe there are not really that many, natural selection will take care of them. Trust me. They will inherit nothing. The real world is not college. They will get eaten alive if they try to apply this stuff in the private sector, where your boss is likely to be a woman in India and nobody cares a whit who you are or what you think as long as you can get the job done. -And if you can't get the job done, you're gone. Fast.

I almost kinda wish these over sensitive wacko indoctrinated kids really did become the majority, that would be great. Because then trust me, MY kids, and any other kids raised away from that nonsense would rampage through life like wolves among sheep. :-)

Same thing with the protesters. Yeah, some people are gonna protest on Friday. *shrug* People are always protesting something. The sun will rise and set and we'll have a new president at the end of it. It won't be a big deal.

Seriously though, take a break from watching the news. Don't go on the web. (Except the Bronze, of course!) Tune out for a few days. Grab some hobby time or spend time with your people. It'll do you some good.

^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Jan 18 16:46:08 2017 [Edit/Delete]
yay muffy the vampire annoyer!

deadguy qod - I haven't attended a con recently, the closest would be a local SoDakon last summer. I would love to go to one again though. Maybe Dragoncon this year.

Happy non-Angel Wednesday!

^ v
KAM says:
(Wed Jan 18 16:09:41 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Wed Jan 18 16:11:10 2017
Hello again,

Sorry 'Yay of the day' I'm clearly in a salty mood. :)

Deadguy QOD Well, I've been going to C2E2 in terms of "pop culture" stuff (mostly comic related), but otherwise (board) gaming conventions.

Agent Cooper: Well, we CAN be ok, but we need to stop delving into nonsense.
The near-paradise we live in is a historical oddity, not the norm, but I think we've fallen into a state of taking things for granted across the board.
We've got this weird zone where we have it so good that we are looking to find more and more ways to talk about how bad things are, and in the process knocking the foundation out from under what enables things to be good in the first place.

A quick example: We've got College kids who are so pampered that they're retreating to "safe spaces" (from IDEAS--not actual danger) and inventing "microaggressions" and imagining "privilege" attempting to discern between who is more spoiled than the next person within a pool of massively privileged and spoiled brats. All the while, targeting free speech--COMPLETELY missing the point of why that's important.
Free speech isn't for something you agree with--it's for what you DON'T agree with. There's no need to protect group-think.

To take inspiration from your Star Trek quotes: We're sort of like the society that has all its needs taken care of by the Nanny computer to the extent that no one knows how to do anything...or fix the computer.

So...MAYBE we will be ok, if we realize we need to work to KEEP things ok, and not ignorantly destroy the foundation of how we created this free society by "progressing" ourselves into the flipping dark ages.

Ty King Fan

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Jan 18 15:32:58 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydale's Double Trivial Pursuits
: Buffy and Angel Editioin

Question: What kind of necklace did Angel give Buffy in Welcome to the Hellmouth?
Question: What did Buffy allow Angel to do to her in Graduation Day part 2?

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Jan 18 15:29:10 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Kam - Don't worry. Things will work out okay.

Spock: "History is replete with turning points, Lieutenant. You must have faith."

Valeris: "Faith?"

Spock: "That the universe will unfold as it should."

Valeris: "But is that logical? Surely we must....."

Spock: "Logic, logic, and logic..... Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end."

^ v
YayOfTheDay says:
(Wed Jan 18 14:48:58 2017 [Edit/Delete]
KAM - ok, ok, I got sidetracked this morning.

let's hear a great big bronze cheer for muffy the vampire annoyer!

yay muffy the vampire annoyer!

today's deadguy memorial angel wednesday question is brought to you by:

sunnycon - sunnydale celebrates beach movies and tv shows

what cons or other fan events have you recently attended?

Happy non-Angel Wednesday!

^ v
KAM says:
(Wed Jan 18 14:06:22 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Edited: Wed Jan 18 14:09:30 2017
Good Morning Everyone,

YAY No one gets a YAY.

Maverick: I'm not sure I'd describe Trump voters as "enlightened' because I believe that what we've seen is a pendulum swing--where people have been pushed, ignored and marginalized and they're simply pushing back.
I think what's "surprising" is why this is a surprise. The reason is that the media did a great job at showering praise and avoiding most criticism of Obama, while ignoring what quite a few people were actually experiencing over the last 8 years.
Our "watchdog" media has all but collapsed.

In regards to Joss...classless moron--not really worth spending more time on him.
However, it is kind of informative--because it demonstrates the sort of bubble that these lunatics have to live in to get to a point where they A) have these sorts of thoughts and B) where they think this is ok and a good idea to post on social media. This is not a normal reaction from a sane mind.

In regards to this whole "mocking a disabled reporter" thing. Yeah, someone reported on this stuff during the election. I'm not a fan of Trump's presentation and likely won't be moving forward.
What's clear to me is that many people hate Trump, and they will do whatever they can--regardless of facts to attack him, and that will be the norm for the next 4 (or more) years.
Why would this surprise me? This is the same media that has lavished praise and worship on Obama, and gasps when he enters the room (ref, his appearance at the last Press conference).

I am DEEPLY troubled by this hero-worship of politicians (don't care which one). Hmmm, where have we seen this sort of thing in history before...oh I just can't seem to recall. Ah, no matter--I'm sure that all turned out ok, right?
I guess I have to hand it to President Obama. While he (naturally) was very happy to accept the adoration of the press, he probably could have pushed it quite a bit further. I've little doubt that these same slavish devotees would not justify almost anything he chose to do. So, Thanks President Obama for not going full Nero. Just to be clear--I'm not saying President Obama is that sort of person--I'm making the point that the Media's utter lack of ethics would enable such a thing.

I hope President Obama enjoys his retirement and time with his family, and I wish him lots of happy years on the golf course.

Ty King Fan

^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Wed Jan 18 13:25:44 2017 [Edit/Delete]

King Arthur: I am your king.

Woman: Well, I didn't vote for you.

King Arthur: You don't vote for kings.

Woman: Well how'd you become king then?

[Angelic music plays... ]

King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.

Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

^ v
TheBirthdayGnomette says:
(Wed Jan 18 12:39:45 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Today is Wednesday, January 18th 2017 C.E.

We have SIX (6) Birthdays!

Dru in LA

Happy Birthday from the Bronze, to Arsineo, CJ, Dru in LA, Daisy, JustLiza, Misty13!

Mal: You are very much lacking in imagination. Zoe: I imagine that's so, sir.
'Out Of Gas''''

to be added to the birthday list, please email

^ v
Trivia Girl says:
(Wed Jan 18 12:34:38 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Sunnydales Trivial Pursuit

Category: States
Question: What was the 45th state to be admitted to the Union?
Answer: Utah!

NotsoShyGirl knows her states!

^ v
Maaverick says:
(Wed Jan 18 06:26:38 2017 [Edit/Delete]
KAM1: Yes, they ARE hypocrites and lousy losers but that's been exposed so often that the Right has finally built-up enough enlightened voters to vote Trump in. They just don't realize the more they protest the election results, the more ridiculous and blindly partisan they are revealed to be and unworthy of ANYONE's vote.

KAM2: Not certain if you've seen this, so here's a link.. Joss has been called upon to exhibit his understanding of economics and politics and has been shown to be beaucoup misinformed. Why these Hollywood types feel it necessary to parade their ignorance is amazing. Although, in all fairness Paul Ryan is probably my least favorite Republican.

KAM3: This is the Narrative about Trump that even his supporters could not countenance. And it turns out to just be another Democratic dirty trick lie. Here's more proof Trump did not mock disabled reporter's disability. And even more proof. I wanted you to have this proof as the lie will continue as long as there is a Democratic Party. This reminds me of what the Obama-controlled Media did to Mitt Romney who, before the U.S. Government under Obama intervened in the Auto Industry to "save it," wrote a New York Times Op Ed article entitled, "The Way Forward For the Auto Industry" in which he explained that it would be necessary to file for Chapter 13 Re-organizational Bankruptcy in order to re-negotiate Union Labor Contracts, and he delineated the steps that would have to be taken to reemerge out the other side and continue operating, and the New York Times ran his article but with the title, "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt" and even Obama referred to Romney's position as though he had advocated that the auto companies declare Chapter 7 Liquidation Bankruptcy and go out of business. And to the heights of hypocrisy, Obama later DID actually take GM and Chrysler through Chapter 13 Bankruptcy Court and pretty-much followed Romney's survival formula to a T. And yet the Media vilified Romney and declared Obama the hero of this tale.



^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Jan 18 03:04:45 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

The analysis of voting systems is one area of study in discrete
mathematics. From what I've read, there is no perfect system. Each method
has advantages and disadvantages.

I believe there are systems that mix parliamentary and presidential
elements, France for one. When Lebanon first became a state, the various
offices were distributed based on ethnicity. The dominant ethnic group got
the top office, the next most populous group got the second most important
office, etc. The problem was over the years the size of the various ethnic
group populations changed. Those that had been on the bottom moved closer
to the top and as they did, they wanted the positions went with it. The
ethnic groups that already held the positions didn't see the population
changes as demanding they step down. *g*

Anyway, the other night you spoke about finding ways to bridge differences
between polarized groups. Since then I've come across a lecture exploring
that issue. In a bit, I'll post the professor's recommendations.


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Jan 18 02:36:44 2017 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Then it doesn't necessarily track that a presidential vs parliamentary system is better. It seems with parliamentary systems, there may be more difficulties (like Germany) when you have a minor party become something of a kingmaker.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Jan 18 02:03:20 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

I suspect there is more than one reason, but the first reason coming to my
mind is what is required for a party to win. Consider two hypothetical
cases where people are running for a legislative seat...

Country A

Rule: Seats are rewarded based on percentage a party wins of the vote. If
a party winds 15% of the vote, the it gets 15% of the seats.

Country B

Rule: Whoever wins the most votes wins all the seats.

Ten parties run. One party wins 15% of the vote, but that's more than what
any of the other parties do. So, the party wins all the seats.

Such a system would probably lead those ten parties to aggregating into
fewer parties, eventually into only two parties.

Looking at it what I just wrote, it appears a political system where only
one can win leads to parties aggregating into larger parties so to win
elections. OTOH, if seats are allocated proportionally then the
aggregation can wait till after the election, because if no one party has
a majority it can try to make deals with other parties to create a

The chief executive in most, if not all, parliamentary systems is the
leader of the winning political party. In presidential systems, the fates
of the executive and the legislative are not always connected.
Parliamentary systems do not have divisions between the executive and the


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Jan 18 01:06:33 2017 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Isn't it more common, at least in European countries, to have more than two parties? I wonder why America is different.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Jan 18 00:53:54 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Christopher Marlowe,

Most any serious history of the early Republic will at least touch on the
concern over the dangers of political parties. Many believed or thought men
would run and serve as individuals on temporary leave from their professions
or occupations. Serving in the legislature was not meant to be a career.

Of course, experience showed different.

As our Constitution demonstrates, not everyone was so idealistic. The
Constitution reflects the belief that men tend to seek self-interest.
Consequently power has to be distributed so self-interest could check self-
interest. When such a systems is working well, getting things done means


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Wed Jan 18 00:44:08 2017 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard Are you at a particular website? I'm not sure how you get around parties, because people naturally fall in to groups.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Jan 18 00:13:46 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Thomas Jefferson said because of partisan politics ...

"Men who have been intimate all their lives cross the street to avoid


^ v
wolfguard says:
(Wed Jan 18 00:04:36 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Several of the Founding Fathers believed political parties would harm the new

"One of the expedients of party to acquire influence ... is to misrepresent
the opinions and aims of other(s) (the spirit of party kindles animosity and)
agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms."

- George Washington


^ v
ChristopherMarlowe says:
(Tue Jan 17 23:09:23 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Agent Cooper I would feel more comfortable with Ivanka in charge...The Donald can be the First Gentlemen of the White House.

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Jan 17 22:32:22 2017 [Edit/Delete]

A doubt without a reason given is just an exclamation. *g*

~ The idea of like-minded souls bound by a common cause linking up around the
country is anathema to the Party ~

An Economist correspondent speaking on the Chinese Communist Party


^ v
Agent Cooper says:
(Tue Jan 17 21:47:01 2017 [Edit/Delete]
Hey, the bronze is back!

Chris Marlowe: Yeah, I saw something about that on the news. Melania is staying in NYC where their kids go to school and Ivanka will take over some of the traditional FLOTUS stuff.

But I'm more worried about what POTUS is going to do. This Trump fella had better deliver!

He can start by making sure EVERYBODY gets MLKJ day off. Not just government workers. :-)

^ v
DaddyCatALSO says:
(Tue Jan 17 21:43:43 2017 [Edit/Delete]
wolfguard I seriously doubt that *weg. cc OldManFan

^ v
wolfguard says:
(Tue Jan 17 21:42:01 2017 [Edit/Delete]
"Politics is where nuance goes to die."



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